tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12261589.post8910435460631549798..comments2023-11-02T05:27:45.871-04:00Comments on The Culture of Chemistry: Chemophobia: The Boy with a Thorn in His JointsMichellehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12617476463347663364noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12261589.post-44547697405156985892013-02-20T13:16:19.528-05:002013-02-20T13:16:19.528-05:00A good and measured reply, but it serves only to i...A good and measured reply, but it serves only to increase my concern. My experience with people who favor alternative medicine has been that they uniformly reject medical authority from any source and prefer to self-prescribe, well, anything and everything. What is your impression?jrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09970581038792305659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12261589.post-48462955065945992982013-02-14T14:46:14.258-05:002013-02-14T14:46:14.258-05:00The Cultural Cognition website came up several tim...The Cultural Cognition website came up several times at ScienceOnline 2013, and is a fascinating resource. Michellehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12617476463347663364noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12261589.post-70183671274164022612013-02-14T14:45:23.531-05:002013-02-14T14:45:23.531-05:00A well trained traditional Chinese physician might...A well trained traditional Chinese physician might indeed know to order a liver panel (or otherwise be on the alert for such side-effect), it's when these drugs (which can be effective) end up being self-prescribed that the troubles can really begin.Michellehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12617476463347663364noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12261589.post-61582718071067740912013-02-14T14:31:15.930-05:002013-02-14T14:31:15.930-05:00I enjoyed this post immensely. In my view, the ce...I enjoyed this post immensely. In my view, the central point -- that conventional and "natural" drugs can differ far more in perception than in function -- is an important one, and well-presented here. As it happens, I have been taking 15 mg of methotrexate weekly for over ten years as treatment for rheumatoid arthritis. I tolerate it well, and it has stopped my joint degeneration in its tracks. My only regret is that I did not start earlier. Ironically in this context, I was initially reluctant to start methotrexate precisely because its side effects are so thoroughly reported. I get a liver panel several times a year, and consistently test fine, but the only reason I get the test is that my rheumatologist knew to order it. What are the odds that my local traditional Chinese apothecary would tell me to get my liver tested if I took Four-Marvels powder?<br />jrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09970581038792305659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12261589.post-48349396964886192832013-02-11T13:04:43.649-05:002013-02-11T13:04:43.649-05:00Michelle,
First, let me say that this is an excel...Michelle,<br /><br />First, let me say that this is an excellent post (both here and your article on Slate). I feel like much of what you identify here in terms of visceral public reactions (including highly selective focus on what constitutes "chemicals") has tremendous carry-over in many other technological fields (including nuclear technology, where I reside). I'd be very interested to hear your follow-on thoughts as to how to facilitate better communication strategies that cut through some of these biases concerning risk within the chemistry field, as it seems like there would be a great deal of applicability to other fields (particularly nuclear energy, etc.)<br /><br />Something I'd point out is work by Dan Kahan on his Cultural Cognition project (http://www.culturalcognition.net) - basically Kahan has been doing social science research as to where polarizations over risk perception arise from (and subsequently, getting back to how we can produce the kinds of science-informed discussions of risk like you're talking about - i.e., where individuals may still reach different conclusions about how to balance the risks inherent to modern technology while fundamentally coming from the same understanding of what those risks *are* - like the issues you bring up here.)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12086026121605548134noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12261589.post-61316665968328973022013-02-10T13:53:48.057-05:002013-02-10T13:53:48.057-05:00Michelle,,
Thanks for the thoughtful blog post and...Michelle,,<br />Thanks for the thoughtful blog post and article over at Slate. I agree with you that people often think "natural" is good, even though the components of many natural products can also be found in chemically derived compounds.<br /><br />However, I think the larger point of the NYT article was the the food allergens removed from the boy's diet calmed down his arthritis, not the Chinese herbal remedy (which may have helped with his pain, but not the reversal of his arthritis). I was left with the understanding that a gluten-free, dairy-free diet was the only aspect of the boy's treatment that took, and that he had flare ups when he consumed wheat or dairy.<br /><br />So, even though the writer did allow her son to take the Chinese herbal medicine, I don't think she attributes his cure to it, but rather to the elimination of some of the top food allergens.Amyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08281629452610730765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12261589.post-7717540321361232122013-02-10T10:31:53.580-05:002013-02-10T10:31:53.580-05:00There are a lot of issues around this, beyond the ...There are a lot of issues around this, beyond the language issue I was try to tease out here. Trust is a big one. I get why people distrust the monolithic construct "the chemical industry" but wonder why we often don't ask the same (good!) questions about the alternatives. Michellehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12617476463347663364noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12261589.post-85137857101703751972013-02-10T10:28:01.510-05:002013-02-10T10:28:01.510-05:00Thanks for the helpful peer review! I've stas...Thanks for the helpful peer review! I've stashed the better references, and will try to put some links up later. Michellehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12617476463347663364noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12261589.post-68030954472636677362013-02-10T10:26:46.024-05:002013-02-10T10:26:46.024-05:00Monica, that's exactly the point I had hoped t...Monica, that's exactly the point I had hoped to make. I didn't mean to imply that quercetin was more dangerous than methotrexate, just that it, too, had risks. They are both drugs, they both have risks. I wouldn't give my child either without doing the best I could to assess the risks on an even footing.Michellehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12617476463347663364noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12261589.post-37423135575410413792013-02-10T09:09:14.404-05:002013-02-10T09:09:14.404-05:00Hi - Got here from your Slate article, the premise...Hi - Got here from your Slate article, the premise of which I think is important, and worth thinking about and discussing. I wish however you had stuck to more consistent arguments when building your case. Methotrexate is also very powerfull and contrindicated for pregnant women (http://www.rxlist.com/trexall-drug/overdosage-contraindications.htm) making your emotional statement about pouring quercetin down a son's thoat - a canard. Same goes for Methotrexate. So I wish instead you fixated on the important point: that it's better to be fully informed and not just anesthetize ourselves with feel-good language. Your choice sets up a false premise that quercetin is more dangerous on that condition alone (pregnant women). That disingenuous notion, doesn't do justice to your other valid points.Monicanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12261589.post-17776484209981902382013-02-08T19:53:47.464-05:002013-02-08T19:53:47.464-05:00Hi Michelle,
I got here from your Slate article, ...Hi Michelle,<br /><br />I got here from your Slate article, which I thoroughly enjoyed. One small (maybe significant) point about quercetin: although you're correct that at least one MSDS cites 125 mg/kg as acute oral LD50 in mice, this value seems to be way too low, and I'm not sure where it came from. Over on Cayman's site their MSDS lists 159 mg/kg for mice and 161 mg/kg for rats. Again, weird. Typical dosages administered in studies evaluating the prophylactic effect of quercetin on toxin exposure are in the 50-100 mg/kg range, and in rats at least two studies have been published using 300 mg/kg/day for the lifetime of the animal, where no overt toxic or genotoxic effects were observed. You can find these easily on Google Scholar. Variations in gut bioavailability and hepatic metabolism will of course yield different values for people but these rodent numbers are just too low.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12261589.post-50005386459884026532013-02-08T10:32:04.263-05:002013-02-08T10:32:04.263-05:00Just read this over on Slate. Great article, and o...Just read this over on Slate. Great article, and one that I will cite when people gush about how all herbal remedies must be safe because they are, you know, herbal. Thanks!LindaCOhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10316183776592482615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12261589.post-70065795370860439572013-02-08T04:43:42.326-05:002013-02-08T04:43:42.326-05:00It's not so much a confusion about word defini...It's not so much a confusion about word definitions as it is a profound loss of trust in the system. I think people use "chemical" to mean "manufactured" or "synthesized." <br /><br />You can argue that four-marvels powder is manufactured as well (it is), but it's perceived as product of an ancient wisdom tradition instead of a compromised and corrupt modern artificial culture. <br /><br />There's a certain degree of romanticism in that, but we live in a media environment where we are bombarded with pharmaceutical marketing, over-hyped health studies, and stories about medical research corruption. <br /><br />I'm not surprised that a lot of people respond to medicine the same way they do politics: look for a way to chuck the whole sorry system. Medical science has some reputation repair ahead of it. Education is going to be a part of that, but it's not going to be effective until people feel they can trust the process more. Johnhttp://www.thudfactor.com/noreply@blogger.com